5th October 2007

Scotland Today Transcript

Filed under: Media, SYHA — Chris Hunt @ 2:23 pm

It’s not often that the youth hostel movement gets 20 minutes’ discussion on national radio (well, national to Scotland anyway), so I thought I’d preserve Wednesday’s coverage in the form of a transcript. Scotland Live airs every weekday lunchtime on Radio Scotland and is presented by Mhairi Stuart, here’s what they had to say about hostel closures…

Scotland Live, BBC Radio Scotland 3/10/2007

Mhairi
For three quarters of a century now the Scottish Youth Hostelling Association has been welcoming walkers to its properties across Scotland, but following a recent review seven of its 53 hostels are to close. The announcement has raised concerns in the affected areas from Deeside to the borders where communities fear the loss of tourism revenue. We’ll be hearing from a village in Perthshire in a moment, but first let’s hear from the Chief Executive of the Association, Keith Legge, who’s in our Stirling studio. Good afternoon to you.
Keith
Good afternoon.
Mhairi
Which hostels are you closing?
Keith
Well, we’re closing a number across the country which is very regrettable, because we’re not in the business of closing hostels, but this is needing to be done to secure the sustainable future of the network as we know it.
Mhairi
I notice actually that you’re closing, I think, two in the south of Skye. Does that leave anywhere for people there to go?
Keith
Well, in Skye and Kyle of Lochalsh we actually have seven hostels, so we’re actually going from seven to five. We’re actually closing two in Skye for two completely different reasons: not because of lack of visitors, it’s to do with the fabric of the buildings, and we also have plans to reinvest in Skye as well. So we’re just rationalizing what we’re doing.
Mhairi
Generally then, you’ve picked seven, what reasons are behind the bulk of these closures?
Keith
There are several reasons. There’s no one reason that fits all seven. It’s mainly to do with a number of reasons which is the fabric and condition of buildings which are not viable to reinvest in; some of them are to do with decline in use and changing travel patterns, particularly with the Skye Bridge on Skye; and also listening to what our customers have to say on where they want to go and what sort of services and quality of services they’re looking for.
Mhairi
So you’re really looking at the ones which aren’t bringing the people in.
Keith
Well, not completely, because there is one of them which is doing very well but the building itself, if we were to invest in it for the long term, we wouldn’t get the money back. So we’re actually looking to relocate the business from there fifteen miles up the road. So we’re not actually abandoning places altogether, and in quite a lot of places we’re in competition with ourselves.
Mhairi
And how have tourism patterns changed in terms of who is likely to use a hostel and where they go?
Keith
Well, in the 1930s when we were set up, it was designed to take working families out of the industrial area for a weekend away on the cheap and get back to work for Sunday night. The patterns have changed. A lot of these people are now going overseas because it’s cheaper, and if you go around Scotland today it’s a very expensive exercise.
Mhairi
Is that why fewer backpackers are going around the country than used to?
Keith
Well, you use the word “backpacker” - we serve more than just backpackers. There are families, there are schools groups, there are youth groups, there are social inclusion groups, there are elderly people, there are outdoor activity organisations and serious pursuits that we preserve. We serve a broad church anyway.
Mhairi
What do you say, though, to local communities who fear the loss of the hostel, and I guess some places will only have the one hostel, they fear that the loss will be a loss in revenue for the villagers.
Keith
Obviously it’s very regrettable and these are not decisions which have been taken lightly. We do sympathise with those communities, but we have to look after the wider needs and the best interests of the Association looking to the future.
Mhairi
Are you opening new hostels too?
Keith
Yes, we’re looking to do that. That requires funds, I mean, you can’t have the ethos that we have and not have funds to support it. So, you know, we have a quandary in our mission statement that we keep our prices as low as possible, but our running costs are escalating out of control, mainly to do with compliance and building maintenance.
Mhairi
Are you shifting though, perhaps an emphasis from the countryside to the city, where I suppose you get more people coming through so they are more likely to make money?
Keith
This is a common statement that’s levelled at me often, and I would just like to say that of our 55 hostels that we currently have, 53 hostels at the moment, the top third are the only ones which make money and they subsidise, cross-subsidise the other two thirds to keep them alive. So the city hostels are important but they’re not solely what we’re about, and they actually produce the necessary funds to keep the small hostels alive. In basic terms, if people want to keep their hostels they’ve got to use them, be they in the city or in the countryside.
Mhairi
OK, Keith Legge, please do stay with us. The hostel in Killin is one of those earmarked for closure, our reporter Laura Maxwell is there now. Laura, just tell us a bit about it.
Laura
Mhairi, it’s an absolutely beautiful old Victorian building which sleeps about 40 people, but don’t take my word for it. If I look at what the Lonely Planet has to say there’s well-kept dorms in a lovely Victorian mansion, well equipped and popular with walkers. We also have the Rough Guide to Scotland which says that it’s a fine old country house just beyond the eastern end of the village with views out over the loch. Now, this is a beautiful area of Scotland, you’ve got the Falls of Dochert just down the road, you’re not far from Ben Laws, you’ve got Ben Lyon, and we’re actually in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park, so it should be a fairly popular place with tourists and I tried to book a place in this hostel this weekend coming and for the weekend after and it’s completely busy, which is not surprising since it’s only £12.50 a night. But it is, as you say, one of those which is about to close, and I’m joined by a few people who live in Killin to tell me a bit about what they think about that. Fiona Kennedy is the Chairwoman of the local community council, Kay Riddle is a local community councillor and Linda Frost is a local resident. If I can start with you Fiona, how do you feel about the closure? What was your reaction when you heard bout it?
Fiona
I thought it was a great shame as the youth hostel is important to the village. All the businesses, the hotels, even the local library benefit from the people that come to the youth hostel, and every weekend it is a busy hostel.
Laura
I’m just wondering, Kay, I know that you’re on the community council, you also work in the library, do you see a lot of people coming through that stay here?
Kay
Yes, I do. I get them sitting waiting in till it opens at five o’clock so I get a rough idea of how many people are going the nights that I’m open late. They’re sitting there, looking at their books or using the internet, and there is a lot of people using it, so it’s a shame it’s going to close.
Laura
And, is there a great feeling around the village, Linda, that most people have reacted the same way about the closure?
Linda
Yes, I think the initial reaction of most people is at first surprise. Because the youth hostel’s been here for a long time, it appears to be busy, it appears to be happily running and everybody was surprised, and everybody that I’ve spoken to seems to think that it’s one more thing away from Killin, one more loss for the village.
Laura
Now, you mentioned there that it’s going to have an impact on local businesses. Which ones do you think will suffer, Fiona?
Fiona
I think the local co-op and definitely the hotels and restaurants, because a lot of people enjoy going out for a meal at night, and a drink. And there’s always local music, there’s music on, entertainment on, at the weekend, and I think everybody will miss out on this.
Laura
It’s interesting you should say that, though, because actually Killin is such a tourist trap that you would think that maybe even with the closure of this place other people would maybe benefit, from B&Bs or more rooms in there hotels going. Is that the case Kay?
Kay
Well, I think that the hotels and the bed & breakfasts do well as it is, and if you’re saying there’s five thousand visitors come here, I really can’t think where they would all stay if this place actually closed. And also, a lot of people that come here I think maybe come back with their families or tell other people about the village, so it’s going to have quite a knock-on effect on the tourists, I feel.
Laura
I suppose it would also be one argument that, say, with backpackers, hill walkers, youth hostellers, whatever you want to call the market here, maybe don’t spend that much in the village. They might buy a couple of bottles of wine and come back here to sit and drink it, they cook their food here. do you really think that the local businesses will miss out that badly?
Linda
Yes, I think as Fiona has said, they do use the restaurants, they do support the live music that some of the pubs and restaurants put on at the weekends and they’ve got to eat, wherever they buy it - in a restaurant or in the local shops. If they buy it here to move on to a hostel tomorrow or they buy when they get here, they’ve got to keep going somehow and so it’s bound to have some impact on the village.
Laura
Having spoken to a few people in Killin, one thing that’s been mentioned time and time again are the bus routes that are coming into the village and the fact the people are worried about them. Fiona, what would happen to the bus routes do you think?
Fiona
Well, we’re hoping to get the citylink Edinburgh to Fort William bus once we get the new bus turning area, and I think a lot of people would stop off more in Killin, and if they’re youth hostelling, they’ve got a lovely place to come to.
Laura
And if they don’t, you’re worried that the bus route perhaps wouldn’t come here. Is that basically the problem?
Linda
Yes, I think so, and I think if people do like the youth hostel here, maybe they wouldn’t stay in other accommodation, maybe they’d move on to another youth hostel further along if that’s what they’d prefer. Which seems a bit ridiculous when Killin’s got so much to offer to walkers of all abilities.
Laura
So what can you do now, obviously I’m sure you’re going to make an appeal to Mr Legge who’s sitting listening in the studio today, please don’t close our hostel, but if that’s not an option what is the best option, Kay?
Kay
It’s for a private company to take it over. I can’t see, though, how a private company could run it if the Youth Hostel Association can’t make it pay. The other thing off down the road is buying it as a community, like Killin has already done with the local old people’s home.
Laura
So there are people in Killin who are ready to get up and organise this. If you’ve already bought out an old folks’ residential home, could you buy this place and make it work?
Linda
I think it’s a different kettle of fish really, because the old folks’ home was a viable proposition when it was taken over, but as we say, if the Youth Hostel Association can’t make it go, how could a local group of people make it viable?
Laura
So you’ve got Keith Legge sitting listening here, what would you like to say to him Fiona?
Fiona
I’d like Keith to think again, and I know it is a high maintenance property but surely more money could be put into this hostel.
Laura
What about, would local people be maybe willing to do some voluntary work here, to maybe help cut staff running costs. If you thought it might be worth doing that, would that be an option Linda?
Linda
I don’t really know, it hasn’t been though about. You’d have to ask the wider community, but also maybe they could ask their customers would they be willing to pay a little more to stay here. It’s very convenient for a lot of hill walking, cycling, pony trekking and they’ve got most of the things that they want here. Would the customers have any suggestions?
Laura
There you go Mhairi, there’s a few questions to put back to Mr Legge in the studio.
Mhairi
I have written them all down thanks very much indeed. Well, Keith Legge is still here, he was listening to that. Keith, first question: will you think again?
Keith
We’re always open to suggestions. When I wrote to the community council about the closure I offered to come and discuss it with them. The thing is, as I say again, this is not an easy decision, this is not something that we wish to be doing, but we have to rationalize for the greater good, and also to preserve the great social heritage that the youth hostels have in Scotland and the contribution they make. We’ve got to look at the bigger picture and we will certainly look, and continue to look at other options and we’re open to ideas from any direction.
Mhairi
If this is a busy hostel, though, would a little bit of investment to secure its long term future not pay in the end?
Keith
Well, you would think we’d have looked at that wouldn’t you? The answer to the question is yes, it’s busy perhaps in Killin terms but it’s not really busy enough is the answer. There were one or two indicators there about people going to the pubs and hotels and so on. I mean, we’re only charging on average about £10.70 a night for the hostel, people’ll go down the road and spend twenty quid in the pub…
Mhairi
Couldn’t you charge more then?
Keith
Well, there is one thing that has come out from this - the amount of competition that we’re up against: opposite the hostel there’s also a caravan park, there’s also chalet parks up and down the glen, there’s more hotels, there’s more bed & breakfasts, and if start charging more and the facilities are not as good, they will go elsewhere anyway. We also have another hostel fifteen miles down the road at Crianlarich that is not running to full capacity. So we have all these dilemmas to consider and as I say, if there’s a way out of it we would love to hear it.
Mhairi
Just finally, what about the suggestion of some kind of community buyout?
Keith
We would welcome that, we would certainly give it serious consideration, but again we would have to look at it from what’s in the best long-term interests of the Scottish Youth Hostels Association.
Mhairi
OK, well we have a text here from somebody who’s clearly a fan of youth hostels and Scotland. Kelso says “Youth hostels we have four children and often take holidays in hostels. Twice we’ve toured eastern Canada staying at hostels, it’s very cheap”. I guess your message to anybody who’s listening who might use them is “use them”.
Keith
Of course. If you don’t want the hostels to go, get out and use them. And as your text messager says, we operate within an organisation called the International Youth Hostels Federation which is 63 countries. Being a member of SYHA opens the world to you as well as Scotland.
OK, thanks very much indeed for speaking to us, that’s Keith Legge from the Scottish Youth Hostel Association. Well, what impact on the tourist industry will these closures have, and is there anything that local communities can do about it? Dr Rob Nash from the Scottish Centre for Tourism and Marilyn Barrack from the Elenydd Wilderness Trust in Wales are on the line now. Hello to both of you
Rob
Good morning, afternoon rather.
Marilyn
Hello
Mhairi
Rob Nash, first of all, how has Scottish tourism changed? Clearly there must be some sympathy for the youth hostel association trying to adapt to that.
Rob
Well, yes there obviously is. The youth hostel association has been around for a considerable length of time and the visitors have become far more sophisticated, and they’re actually looking for something that is slightly more in keeping with what the young market is after. If they’re looking to try and improve their market then really they need to be looking at the market leaders which would be places like New Zealand and Australia where you have what they call “institutionalised backpacking”, where all you need to do is book the flights, your first night accommodation in the actual hostel and from then on in you can just do the rest from the hostel itself, and they include things like, apart from the accommodation obviously, there’s food as well, they’ll have a bar, and they’ll have a nightclub of some sort and they might even have cinemas
Mhairi
Right, so you mean our ones are just a bit too basic?
Rob
Well, I think the SYHA might be handicapped a wee bit by the fact of its ethos, in the sense that it’s not really a profit making organisation. Supposedly it’s there for a variety of reasons to generate income sufficiently to keep itself going and also to expose people to the environment in Scotland. Whereas now it’s competing with an awful lot of new hostels which are there driven by making a profit. I think there’s a lot of new hostels developing across Scotland and these are the real problems that the SYHA are facing, and it’s partly to do with their traditional approach I think.
Mhairi
Marilyn, what’s your experience of youth hostels?
Marilyn
Hello, I’ve been involved with the YHA as a volunteer warden with three hostels in the Elenydd region in mid-Wales, and last year the YHA announced they were selling over 30 hostels in England and Wales, including the three in mid-Wales. So, obviously I was very devastated, and what I did - a few of us got together and we decided we would do what we could to save these three hostels - they’re so very very unique, very very special. So we had a meeting and it was decided to form a charitable trust, which we have done, the aim being to raise enough money to buy and run at least one of the hostels. One hostel - T’yn Cornel - came up for sale very quickly last year and we just didn’t have enough money to do this, and we thought we’d lost it, but luckily a private individual came forward and offered to buy it and let us run it as a trust, which in fact is what has happened: we’ve been running it as a trust since last January. The second hostel - Dolgoch - in fact, we have managed to raise enough money, from supporters, and we take over the running of this hostel at the end of October. So it is possible, you see, for ordinary people to save these hostels by doing what we have done.
Mhairi
Are they then viable now? How are you managing to make them pay for themselves?
Marilyn
Oh indeed! Well, for example, T’yn Cornel its overnights last year were just over six hundred bed nights, since we took over in January we’ve reached nearly a thousand bed nights. So in fact the bed nights are increasing
Mhairi
How’ve you managed that?
Marilyn
Publicity, partly. We have a web site, we have leaflets etc. I think the YHA haven’t publicised these isolated hostels and this is important. So partly that, and partly I think people are beginning to realise now how important these hostels are. Once these simple hostels have gone, if they do disappear, they’ve gone forever - they will never come back. It’s very very important to keep them.
Mhairi
Rob Nash, do you think there are lessons there for the Scottish Youth Hostel Association?
Rob
Without a doubt. We need to remember the importance of hostelling to the industry as a whole. With the caveat that statistics need to be viewed with a degree of skepticism, the value to the Scottish economy is between 20 to 40 million pounds a year, a large amount of cash is being earned here. In terms of taking over the hostels for the local community, there are funds available from a variety of sources which will assist in community-led developments. European funding, lottery funding, all would be dependent on getting the community involved. Just because the SYHA can’t make a go of it in these areas doesn’t mean that they’re not profitable, it just means that they are a large organisation with considerable overheads whereas a small community will have far less in terms of overheads, and also perhaps benefit from voluntary input from various local people.
Mhairi
OK, well, thank you very much from both of you. I’d like to go back briefly to Laura and to her guests in Killin. So, clearly, we have some views there that seem to suggest that a community buy-out is pretty viable.
Laura
Yes, I think what everybody would like here is if somebody with lots of money came forward and gave them the money like they did for Marilyn down in Wales! But what do you make of what you’ve heard there? Linda first.
Linda
I was very interested to hear what people are saying about people running it, but I think the youth hostel association maybe could learn from this and listen, as I’ve said, listen to their customers, be a bit more businesslike, advertise more…
Laura
That’s lovely, ladies thank you very much indeed for joining us on this rather wet day. We are all youth hostellers today, we’ve got hill walking boots, our jackets and our bobble hats on.
Mhairi
That’s a nice picture. Thanks very much indeed for that Laura.

As an English hosteller, I don’t really know enough about Scottish hostelling to discuss the rights and wrongs of this decision. I do think it’s interesting that Keith Legge says that only a third of SYHA hostels make money, and that they support the other two thirds. That policy was abandoned south of the border some time ago - every hostel down here is expected to at least cover its costs. If the Scots ever follow suit, there could be a lot more than seven hostels closing.

And when’s the last time you ever saw someone in a bobble hat?

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